PATHFINDER 2ND EDITION MODULE/AP: Fall of Plaguestone

[WhiteMane]

Richard, I was thinking about my character in the car ride home and to be honest I think you're being a little unfair to Frampt. I'm not trying to diss your skills as a DM or worth as a person, but you seemed like you really wanted to make a point tonight about how I shouldn't use my familiar outside of as a spellbook. I disagree, and I wanted to make my thoughts heard.

First, I've literally never seen familiars be targeted, even by plants, unless the player was doing something extraordinarily stupid. Wizards, Witches, Druids, Rangers all seem to be able to use their familiars without issue. Granted that normally isn't much, but I've never seen a wizard calculate his familiar’s HP after getting hit by a fireball to see if he loses all his spellcasting ability. Casters constantly use their familiars to deliver touch spells, and they didn't need to worry about their eagle getting an opportunity attack to the face. Even Ranger familiars, who literally wade into combat with their masters, seem to have been treated as a last priority target in previous games as long as the ranger used them as intended. I'm sure that the rules as written say that you should treat familiars as the “Achilles heels” of their respective players, but that kinda sucks and nobody that I've ever seen does that. It seems like the Devs didn't even worry too much about familiars based on the way they are treated in the book, and they didn't even bother giving them stats like they did in PF1.

Second, powerful familiars are really all the witch has going for it. Without their familiar, witches are kinda just shitty wizards with a weak ass focus spell. Let's go through the witch’s class features to prove it:
Patron: Literally just flavor text.
Lesson / Hex: The witch’s hexes are garbage. Compare the cleric focus spell Moonbeam (which does damage, activates some weaknesses, and dazzles the target which is REALLY good), to the Witch hex Shroud of Night (which targets 1 creature, must be sustained, and just reduces the light level of the space the target is in... In a game where %80 of creatures have dark or low-light vision). The options for hexes aren't great.
Cackle: This is literally just the Sustain a Spell action with some flavor text.
Familiar: The familiar on the other hand is the thing that sets witches apart from other casters. It's not really that powerful, but it is unique. Their familiars get more abilities than any other class, which makes them a versatile tool that can be used for a variety of things without giving them the ability to deal damage or break the game. When making my character, I recognized this, so i picked up a feat that buffed my familiar, built my backstory around my familiar, and gave my familiar speech so that it could act as half of my character rather than a living spellbook.
Without the confidence that, if I play smart and with the intention to have fun rather than break the game, I can use my familiar as the versatile tool they were intended as, the only good class feature of the witch disappears.

Thirdly, It doesn't seem like you care much about managing every other player’s spellcasting focus. The cleric doesn't have to draw his holy symbol before casting, and the Oracle’s curse is ignored. These things, which might even have repercussions on combat, are never brought up. If you decide to be so specific about my familiar, I feel like it's only fair to do so for all players.

In conclusion, I feel like my familiar deserves a break when it tries to close a door or observe the identity of common animals over a hedge. Ultimately though, you're the GM and i'm not trying to bully you into obeying me or something.
However if you are going to keep hardlining my Owl, I would really like to reroll my character so that I can play as a normal, actual wizard instead of a shitty, witch wizard. Witch without their familiar just isn't much fun.

I'm not sure about the details that brought this up, but I will throw in my two cents on how I deal with familiars.

If a wizard or witch has a familiar, I will generally ignore it. That having been said, when it comes into play as something beyond being a spell book, it becomes fair game. Once a spell caster starts sending a familiar in to deliver spells, attack, or influence things, then it becomes fair game in my mind. If a wizard is using his familiar to deliver touch spells, why wouldn't an adversary kill the familiar to prevent him from using it to attack? I can't think of any good reason.

I'll tell you that I played one game in which a familiar tried to steal the macguffin that we were going for in the story. Normally, my character wouldn't care, but it was taking my macguffin! So I killed it and caused the witch who owned it to freak out. I assume NPCs will behave the same way.

[lochinvar_1971]

Conner,

I appreciate the feedback. I have always targeted familiars or animal companions while they are in play. As OJ mentioned, if it's just sitting on your shoulder and not doing anything, I generally do not consider it a threat. However, I do make them roll saves for AOE's regardless of the situation. That being said in all my time GM'ing in 1st edition I only ran across one or two players that had living familiars, mostly witches. Most wizards/sorcerers took the bonded item in lieu of the living familiar for just that reason. Or as the game progressed there were magic items that shielded the familiar. I have killed a witches familiar before, when it was delivering a touch spell against a creature that had reach.

I agree, with your comment that it is an Achilles heel for a caster and more so for a witch in either edition.

In this case your familiar was in play and was the only target available for two animal intelligent creatures. Had it been an intelligent creature with the decision to attack your familiar or the armored, sword wielding half orc thats up in his grill, the familiar would most likely not have been considered the greater threat. If the team had failed the skill check and alerted the adversaries, I would have targeted your scouting familiar as it would have been the only target in sight; however the skill check was made and the encounter moved forward as I interpreted the tactics that were provided to me.

As to your other concerns about other magic focus. A cleric is not required to present their holy symbol. If you read the spellcasting section for a cleric, the holy symbol is a focus object used in lieu of material components for the spell actions and utilizes an action (usually the third action on a 3 action spell) - no different than any other type of caster using material components. In my mind I envision a cleric touching their holy symbol or a wizard reaching into their regent pouch and scattering the spell component, but there are no specific rules about that. In the Playtest you did have to present it (defined by the requirements to have a hand free to cast a spell), but that rule did not make it to the final release.

That being said in 1E I saw GM's and Players use sunder to destroy a holy symbol or a weapon or another specific item. This ability does not currently exist in PF2, the only thing close is the steal action, which specifically states it cannot be used in combat. Granted Paizo has created creatures that do have certain abilities to break armor, weapons, and other items as we saw last night. If there was a situation where the cleric did not have their holy symbol, then I would rule that they could not cast a three action spell. This is due to the fact that the spell action is as follows {->(somatic), ->->(verbal, somatic), ->->->(material, verbal, somatic)}. Also, if they had it concealed (for rp reasons) then at some point they would have to use an interact action to bring it back into view in order to cast a three action spell - however, unless I am informed otherwise I assume that the player has their holy symbol in view.

I will admit, I am not as familiar with the oracle, I skimmed through it and the only time that the curse comes into play is if there is repetitive use of the focus spell (an alternate mechanic to the normal casting of a focus spell). I have not seen Sean use this ability, but I will re-review the rules and do a better assessment of the actions that are taken by the oracle.

[Pippin]

I so love that we can simply have intellectual discussion when there's a grievance rather than harboring hurt feelings as happens in so many other settings. Thanks, Connor and Richard, for being awesome humans, and thanks OJ and Randy for helping foster such a healthy community!
My two cents on it, having GM'd in situations with familiars, I target them if they present themselves as threats (delivering touch spells, for example) or include them in a random roll if an unintelligent creature has multiple targets and it is presented as a lone presence. If I'm not mistaken, that's how Richard did it last night and it's how I've seen almost all of my favorite GM's (you know who you are) do it.
If I may respond to the concern about the oracle curse, Richard is correct that Sesi would only activate that if she used one of her focus spells (fire ray or incendiary aura), and thus far, I have not run into a situation where I opted for that. I considered fire ray when Anivia (or whatever the owl's name is) was in trouble, but the rat things were out of range for it (60' range 2d6 fire blast). Had I done that, I'd then suffer the minor version of my curse. If I did it a second time, I'd get the moderate version (which I could reduce back to minor with a 10 minute rest).
Regarding the idea of you rebuilding your character, I think your character is very well made and you've used him very effectively. He's also a super-fun character in how you role-play and present him, so I'd definitely miss that aspect as well. Your usage of your familiar to be more than a spellbook is bold and clever, and I'd encourage you to keep doing it as it adds a glorious additional level of versatility to your character. However, proceed with caution knowing that she could become a target...and always stay within 15 feet of the redeemer champion so she can help reduce damage when it happens. And maybe make stealth checks while flying? I think that should be a thing she could do?
Anyway, that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

*For Richard's knowledge, my minor curse makes gives anyone over 30' away from me concealment as I think there are flames and smoke around (though no one else can see it, so I gain no concealment from them). The moderate curse actually manifests mild flames and smoke and I have concealment and everything is concealed from me, though I don't need to do the flat check for fire spells. Also, everything beyond 30' becomes hidden or undetected.

[Huxley0804]

Richard,
That's fair. I haven't played this game as much as you, and I can see your logic.
That being said, do you mind if I roll a new character? Witch is pretty freaking lame to be honest, and it seems like I built my whole character around my Achilles heel, just making it bigger and more vulnerable.

Sorry Sean, but keeping Anivia around and forcing the paladin to shield her when she does anything feels like the equivalent of me wading into melee. As much as I love this character, I think it's useless to the group.

[Pippin]

Richard,
That's fair. I haven't played this game as much as you, and I can see your logic.
That being said, do you mind if I roll a new character? Witch is pretty freaking lame to be honest, and it seems like I built my whole character around my Achilles heel, just making it bigger and more vulnerable.

Sorry Sean, but keeping Anivia around and forcing the paladin to shield her when she does anything feels like the equivalent of me wading into melee. As much as I love this character, I think it's useless to the group.

I believe Frumpy has been quite useful repeatedly, but I totally respect your viewpoint if you're personally dissatisfied with the character. Been there, done that.

[Huxley0804]

Also, my misconceptions aside, does anyone know how to send a private message on this website? I probably should have just done that from the start, but I cant figure out how. I cant specify recipients like with an email on this reply. Do I need to create a new topic or something?

[Sotovoce]

Connor,

In order to private message someone you can:

If you are logged into the site and looking at someones post, you can click on their hyperlinked name in the post title area. That will take you to that users profile page and from there you will see a "private message" option about half way down.

You can also look at the Menu bar across the top of the site and next to your name on the right hand side is a "private message" option. With that option you will need to address it to the right person (which is why I almost always click on their hyperlinked name in a forum post). Richards login name, for example, is lochinvar_1971. If you use that just like you would an email I think everything sorts itself out.

Hope that helps,

Soto

[lochinvar_1971]

Connor,

I do wish you would reconsider rerolling your character. However, that being said, you can do it after what will probably be the next session, when we move into the third chapter of the module.

Wizards, casters, witches, whatever you call them are definitely downpowered in 2E. To me this brings them more in line with the martial classes, which is what I like about this edition. In 1E, and other systems they are slow to start, but in the end are high on the power curve.

Sean is a much better judge of rp than I am, however, I do enjoy your take on not only Frumph but every character you have brought to the table. You are not just a piece of paper with some numbers written on it; but someone who brings life to the characters you envision, I can tell when you are really excited about the character you have built. For these games I envy you for that.

As to idea of a PM - I'm an open book, maybe some others think the same way as you, and there is no reason that you or them shouldn't question my choices - we are all still learning this ruleset. I like to think that I am running games so people can have fun. True, I am a much more technical player than I am a role player - thats just my style - IRL I'm an engineer and probably a more than a bit more right brained than left.

Mostly I do appreciate the feedback, it helps me understand my audience - who are the most important people. I'm like to think that I am presenting challenges for other people to 1. use teamwork 2. use creative solutions, but at the same time enjoying the 4-5 hours that we spend togther. So if you are not having fun, please let me know and I will try to adjust.

[Huxley0804]

Thanks mark, and thanks Richard. Im looking at ways I can adjust Frampt to make him more viable as a teammate. Ive always intended him to be more of a utility caster and there's probably something I can do to improve that.

[Pippin]

Thanks mark, and thanks Richard. Im looking at ways I can adjust Frampt to make him more viable as a teammate. Ive always intended him to be more of a utility caster and there's probably something I can do to improve that.

Realistically, I tried to make Sesi a blaster with some utility, and it seems like you've gone for a utility with some blasting route for Frampt, so that's a good pairing. Not sure which spell list you have, but I'll happily throw some suggestions your way for utility ideas:

Cantrips:
-Forbidding Ward: occult and divine lists; you target an ally and one enemy and the ally gains +1 to AC against that foe; it is sustainable, so it lasts as long as you keep spending an action to keep it going; could be ideal for when you send Anivia to scout or such
-Message: arcane, divine, and occult lists; 120 ft range lets you whisper to ally as if they were right beside you; excellent scouting/party-splitting spell
-Mage Hand: arcane and occult lists; lets you move stuff around from way over there
-Guidance: one action casting; divine, occult, and primal lists; 30 ft range; +1 to an attack, save, perception, or skill check; can only be used on a target once per hour
1st Level Spells:
-Bless: divine and occult lists; Spreads 5 ft each round sustained to give +1 to attack to allies
-Magic Weapon: arcane, divine, and occult lists; gives weapon +1 to attack and doubles damage dice for 1 minute
-Protection: divine and occult lists; +1 to AC and saves against alignment chosen (no effect against creatures and effects without that alignment)
-Sanctuary: divine and occult; creatures must succeed on a will save in order to attack the target; lasts 1 minute; ideal for Anivia when scouting or such

Anyway, those are just a few suggestions. Hope that's helpful!

[Huxley0804]

Man, this coronavirus thing sucks.
When do you think we will be able to play again?

[WhiteMane]

Man, this coronavirus thing sucks.
When do you think we will be able to play again?

Enchanted Realms is open again with limited instructions for tables. Richard, have you been in touch with Ogre to see about organizing some tables for Wednesdays again?